Monday, February 13, 2012

Today on Kresta in the Afternoon - February 13, 2012

Talking about the "things that matter most" on Feb. 13

4:00 - Conscience Protection: The Congressional Strategy
Cardinal Daniel DiNardo of Galveston-Houston, chairman of the Committee on Pro-Life Activities of the USCCB, has urged support a bipartisan bill protecting conscience rights in health insurance. The bill was introduced by Rep. Jeff Fortenberry (R-NE) and is HR 1179. The bill is more important now then ever before. One of the architect of the bill, David Wilson is here.

5:00 - Bishops Were Not Invited to White House HHS Discussions
Despite the President’s “compromise” on the government’s assault on religious liberty, the White House has not offered any concessions to the U.S. bishops’ conference and NEVER contacted them about possible negotiations. Bishop William Lori of Bridgeport, Conn., said “no one from the administration has approached the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops for discussions on this matter of a possible ‘compromise.’” Bishop Lori joins us.

5:20 – Responding to “The Bishops Deserved This”
There are some now, even Catholics, that are beginning to make the case that the Catholic Bishops deserve what they are getting with the HHS Mandate and the attack on conscience. Paul Rahe argues that “the majority of the bishops, priests, and nuns sold their souls to the devil.” Are we reliving 9/11 when some shouted “The US deserves it.” Al and Jason Hall debunk this line of thinking.

29 comments:

  1. http://ricochet.com/main-feed/American-Catholicism-s-Pact-With-the-Devil

    Above is the article that you are refering to. I'm curious to hear the 'debunking' of this. I think the article makes some good points and it does seem the previous bishops have allowed too much, in the way of 'I call myself Catholic' and not making any public statement that these folks do not follow the church's teaching. It think Obama has brought to life the teaching on contraception to more Catholics then any priest I have ever heard. There has been mostly social teaching doctrine from the pulpit and nothing about the actual doctrine. The social doctrine is often misunderstood or misrepresented. There's nothing about true solidarity and what that means, keeping power close to the people, etc. And many bishops seemed to not speak up or even support the Obamacare initiative which seems to fly in the face of the social justice doctrine of the church. Very strange and I'll be curious to hear what they have to say. I can personally admit that I have done damage to my soul, my mariage, my own thoughts because of behaviours in my past, that I had no idea were even questioned by the church, and I went to Mass each Sunday. Of course today, I do much more than this, but that's all most Catholics will ever do, and if we don't teach, how are we to learn?

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    1. Ninov,
      1) Nobody denies that there has been a failure to teach Catholic doctrine clearly and effectively.
      2) That remains a problem in many parishes.
      3) Many of the historical judgments in the piece don't pass the smell test and show a prior commitment to a political ideology that is insufficiently Catholic.
      4) When you are in the midst of a fight you don't need your friends distracting and demotivating the troops by reminding everyone of past leadership failures. There is no changing the Bishops that we have. This is not a democracy. Conversation about leadership change is fruitless and not in our jurisdiction.
      5) Either play with the team you've got or get out of the game. We can discuss the past after we win the fight at hand. We have often discussed leadership failures in past programs.
      6) Catholics don't relate to Bishops like employees like they do you CEOs, or customers relate to corporations. We are a family that often fights amongst themselves. But when an outsider attacks the family, you had better get tribal and stand with the family.
      Thanks for letting me know how you have overcome the doctrinal deficit of the past

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    2. I've now listened to both the 2nd hour Monday show and Tuesday show and I heard you make all these point. I also heard you basically shoot down the first caller, who was making much the same points I make. I guess I would respond this way. I agree, that the points made in the beginning of the article, are less than factual, although the church does teach, sins of omission are far more prevalent today than sins of commission. I personally struggle with what I'm NOT doing sometimes more than what I am doing! On that note, if we were to look at the Catholic leaders and what they are not doing, these folks are as accountable. I understand the USCCB has no authority in Canon law. This does not change the fact that each and every bishop has the responsibility to shepherd their flock. If someone, like EWTN, is operating in a diocese, they are there at the invitation of the bishop. If they do something that is against church teaching, particularly in a public matter, this is scandalous, as I understand the definition of the church. The local bishop SHOULD 'manage' his flock as well, in order to manage the Catholic brand. It is sad that Catholic Healthcare West was able to completely pull out of the Catholic system. Why did the bishops and Catholic leaders allow these institutions to be called Catholic, but not be under Catholic control? My point here is that I desire to see more leadership. I know bishops are meeting with Pelosi in the background, but that is not having any effect on the public. In fact, it's giving Pelosi and Biden and the like more and more time to spout their doctrine of what it is to be 'their version of Catholic.' I believe the bishops have to be pastoral, but there comes a time when that must be set aside and the damage to the flock is so much greater, and the person must, in a public way, be called out. A bishop can, as I understand it, make a call that person X is no longer to receive communion from the priest’s in his diocese. THIS would make headlines and in a very negative way. GREAT. Let's have the debate over why because it would give the bishops a chance to go on TV, radio, newspapers and explain the truth of Catholic teaching. I got to listen to a woman, in church this weekend, tell my wife and I that she feels betrayed and didn't realize Obama was so pro-abortion. WHY? She laps up the media milk without looking beyond. This is a woman who was doing the rosary before Mass. Frankly, I wanted to blast her for not doing sufficient homework in ‘08, for not vetting her media sources. I did not. I just walked away and let me wife finish the conversation with her. To be continued.....on next post

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    3. Had we had people speaking from the pulpit, saying in 2008, remember, there is a pro-abortion candidate and a pro-life candidate in this race. Makes sure you are clearly vetting these candidate and understand, that there is no amount of social justice that can be done, if you don't have a life that requires social justice. If you aren't sure who those candidates are and who is pro-abortion, see me after Mass and I'll help your discernment process. I know priests who do this. Is this violating our tax-exempt status, I would say not, but I'd say who cares. Nothing was said about a candidate in public, like they do at other churches, and a priest who has had a private conversation with someone after Mass could be considered a non-church function. Of course, we'd have to look at the law, but at some point and time, we may need to really decide if taking money from Caesar or not paying taxes is becoming too restrictive and not allowing us to cut through the clutter and say what we need to say. Bottom line though, we can use and talk about the past, so we don't make the same mistakes. The article was wrong on its initial points, it was right on the fact that for 40 years, we have reaped what we sew, it was wrong in not mentioning how great our current bishops are becoming, it was wrong not to call out, by name, those bishops who continue to rail against the life issue, and it was wrong not to call out the fact that we should support the bishops who NOW, seem to have very much learned from those 40 years of less than desirable teaching and that a new sunrise has occurred, and we need to fight and support the vocal bishops and lovingly help to educate our Catholic brethren. You yourself, in the interview about the 98% contracepting, said that maybe 1/3 of self-identified Catholics attend Mass weekly. That means all others are in mortal sin and not following the Church. I would say they aren’t Catholic, they simply identify with Catholicism more than any other faith. What I thought when I heard you say that is, how many of the 33% are actually doing more than going to Mass on Sunday, know their doctrine, read the CCC, listen to Catholic Radio, have a good Catholic web site as their home page. Maybe 15% of the 33%. How do we reach those other 18% who are barely paying attention? Most are now perfectly happy with Obama’s shift in the HHS mandate. Why, because they saw a few headlines that said, Obama has backed down. No he didn’t, but it shows, they aren’t paying attention to the right media and church, that matters most…..they are too busy looking for 24 hour coverage of Whitney Houston, until that grows tiring to them, then onto the next sensational news items…

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  2. I would also like to add, if you have Pelosi and Biden running around calling "I'm Catholic" and they are on the news, openly supporting choice, and other policies, and the NBC, CBS, FOX, CNN, and all the other places most Catholics get their news from, is all they see. They start thinking these folks are teaching them doctrine. It's not heard at Mass, it's not in any classes at church, which most won't attend anyway, and unless you are like me, on Catholic sources mostly, you'd never know. And the bishops get almost no air time on secular television. So Pelosi and Biden become the leading Catholics in the nation because of their media presence. We'd be getting even more of Pelosi if she were to have held the house. That's the only reason we don't see more of her now. Thankfully, this issue has thrust our bishops into the secular news. But they really need to make a regular point of getting on the secular airways and talking about....the issues that matter most......

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    1. Excellent point. I have long thought that the USCCB needs a long-term media and PR strategy. My suggestion, however, runs into problems at the diocesan level. Local Bishops are supposed to be the spokesmen for their own diocese. In Canon Law there is no "national" diocese. Cardinal Dolan is President of the USCCB, but according to Canon Law he has no authority other than moral authority, in any diocese other than NY.
      Your point is still well-taken. We need to see our Bishops on TV and heard on radio, and quoted in newspapers more than we see Pelosi and Biden. That's why I am so happy about their response to the mandate.

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  3. I have lived in Chicago all of my life and have watched Catholic Charities, The Catholic Campaign For Human Development, the Archdiocese Office For Immigration and much of the rest of the archdiocese bureaucracy serve as footsoldiers for the Democratic Party and lead us to the current mess we are in. I agree wholeheartedly with Paul Rahe that the American Bishops were lured by the promise of an easy solution using government funds and became clients of the very government that they should have been serving as a conscience for through an informed laiety. It is sad to think that while our Bishops are courageously standing up for what is right, they are being undercut by their employees back in the archdiocese offices who will be, once again, campaigning for some of the most pro-death candidates I have seen in my lifetime.

    I want to clearly state that we have been gifted with great bishops in the last few years, Archbishop Dolan, Archbishop Chaput, Cardinal George, but I think it is time that the Church realizes that accepting large government grants to carry out its charitable works is a subtle form of Liberation Theology.

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    1. Paul
      1) My friend Jim Skillen is a Dutch Reformed political analyst and teacher. In his book "The Scattered Voice: Christians At Odds in the Public Square," he creates a spectrum from left to right placing various Christian groups somewhere along this political spectrum. When he wrote this book back in the 80s he placed the US Bishops left of center and within the mainstream of the Democrat party. If you went to the parking lot of the USCCB offices in 2004, as we did, you would have seen far more John Kerry than Bush bumper stickers. I'll bet my first-born that in 2008 Obama stickers still outweighed McCain. This has been reflected in their hiring decisions for staff at the diocesan level. This has been slowly changing however to the point that Democrats now believe that the Bishops are tools of the Republican National Committee
      On your last point regarding government grants, I don't entirely agree. I supported the partnerships of faith-based organizations with federal and state government. This had very little to do with Liberation Theology, but a lot to do with drug rehab programs, homeless shelters, food pantries, rehabbed housing and more. In my mind, the jury is still out on whether or not this strengthens or weakens the Church in its mission. If the State is collecting our money, and redistributing it to alleviate hunger, I would rather they do it through local Christian charities than through impersonal state offices.

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  4. Dear Al

    I appreciate your putting up this stophhs website. Nice job.

    The reason that I am writing to you though, is that I disagree with your analysis of the public opinion contest at the end of your show on Monday. You went negative at the end of the show when you pointed out that, the Church which was united in an unprecedented way last week was now back at a disadvantage because of the Presidents pitting the Bishops against the Uber Hospital Sister, liberal Catholics against conservative Catholics, using statistics to his advantage, and generally demoralizing and swaying public opinion against the Church.

    I think that you should consider another approach and for that matter so should the Bishops. Please consider this.

    It's not about the labels that the American media machine wants to tag us with. It's about whether or not we will form our consciences and live our lives according to the teachings of our Mother, the Church. Are we working on being faithful or unfaithful Catholics.

    We as Catholics have lived, some us for many years, in a media saturated society that is not in favor of our precious Church. Whether it is run away corporatism/commercialism, the historically and increasingly irreligiously motivated political parties, the broadcast media with its idiotic pictures of liberalism, progressivism, conservatism, individualism, free enterprise have all enticed us and largley succeeded in wooing us away from the teachings of our Church. What on earth are we conserving what are we progressing toward, what are we liberalizng. What baloney when compared with what the Church offers us. We have positioned our selves in compartmenatalized lives that are in conflict with the teachings of Jesus and His Body the Church. Let's face it.

    What if Bishops and parish priests were encouraged to make the leap to exhort the faithful to learn about the teachings of the Church and live by them. Imagine that. All of the material has already been developed! Even further imagine if people in your line of work, the Catholic Media were willing to unite and do that. The Rush Limbaugh's, Glen Beck's, Tom Hartman's of the world would get a run for their money. They all have to go back to being disc jockey's. If the leaders of our Church here in the US are unwilling to do this, we are probably entitled to a reasoned response.

    Are you a Republican or a Democrat? Why? Do their platforms conform with the teaching of your church. Neither do.

    How about it? Where do you think we go from here.

    Jon Berkley
    Keizer, OR

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    1. Jon,

      I think I wrote those paragraphs myself. How about if I just sign my name where yours is. I couldn't agree with you more. I would only add that when you are in a fight, you don't demotivate the team by whining about past performance of the coaches. So where do we go from here? We win this fight and protect our ability to make good disciples in the future. That is what freedom is for. It is cto onform our lives to the truth.

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    2. Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck do a better job of defending the Church than do our bishops.

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    3. Rubbish, Glenn Beck rails against the church because of what he perceives are our social justice doctrines, he never gets it right and Rush Limbaugh rarely talks about life issues or the church. I will say, Obama has pushed Rush in the little I get to hear him, to actually mention the link between contraception, cancer, Susan G Kommen and Planned Parenthood. That was last week I think on thursday. I was shocked. You never hear that anywhere. But these men certainly do not understand, nor defend our church. Our current bishops are doing an excellent job.

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    4. I hope this is a joke. Neither Limbaugh or Beck have any interest in promoting the teaching of the Catholic Church. Limbaugh's mission is purely political and commercial. Beck's is a little wider. He is also political and commercial but wants to be inspirtaional as well. Neither care to promote the teaching of the Church.
      Al

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  5. Oh yes. The subtle forms of Liberation Theology.

    Where were all of the Bishops when Obama was campaigning for president? It was widely reported on many conservative websites that as a Illinois state senator Obama voted not 3, but 4 times in favor of infanticide. Pope Benedict visited this country several months before the election warning at least once that social justice does not trump abortion. Were letters written to be read in every parish informing Catholics about the church teachings concerning abortion? Certainly not in my state.

    Our former Jesuit priest's one simple thought at that time was all the good Obama was going to do. Abortion was a secondary consideration. This happened on an Indian reservation with an enrollment of approximately 2000 Indians, 40 can still be counted on ( between 3 parishes) to attend mass on Sunday. The rest of the tribe worship their monthly checks, social justice is their religion. Their God given right to be responsible for themselves was taken away years ago and many behave accordingly.

    We currently have a very good, but extremely frustrated priest who asked to be transferred this summer. I can't blame him, I fear this place is a microcosm of many parts of this country. All we want is Truth. For the other people whose spiritual quest appears to be material, there will always be someone who will try to give what they don't have,... no matter the cost.

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    1. Terry,
      As Bill Clinton used to say, "I feel your pain." This is a tragic story you are telling. I am very sorry to hear about this good priest who feels he has to be transferred. I don't think there is anything you wrote that I would disagree with although I don't know all of the particular circumstances.
      Al

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  6. I wrote to you, before, Al, about the problems with the original formulation of this as a Catholic concern and with discussing it in terms of "exemptions," as though getting the exemptions right would make the government overreach inherent in the mandate OK. My full response to your latest take is here. In general, I think the Bishops should be welcomed to the fight, but at the same time they should have the humility to recognize that they're late coming to it--that it's been waging for a long time, largely without them.

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    1. Dan,
      I read your post and consider it well thought out. I think it is fair to say that it is easier to sponsor legislation and government involvement than it is to apply the principle of subsidiarity and discover creative alternatives to government intervention. I do think that the present composition of the USCCB is more attentive to how modernity works to undermine the plausibility of Catholic truth claims. More and more in my conversation with Bishops I hear them acknowledging how secularization is a HUGE problem. I believe more and more of them understand that large highly-centralized government is one of the chief engines driving modernity along with things like urbanization, mass media, higher education that is disconnected from Church influence, etc. An old book by Os Guinness called "The Grave-Digger Files" lays this out. I think the Bishops will be seeking new partnerships as they combat this threat. Subsidiarity will become the buzzword.

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  7. I completely agree with you that now is the time to present a united front and not turn on other Catholics. I also deplore the appalling hostility to bishops that some more-Catholic=than=the-Pope conservative Catholics indulge in. Nevertheless, I hope this episode will mean that those of us who are skeptical top down, federal government solutions to social problems will at least be given a hearing by the social justice establishment.

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  8. Al, I was reading a related article that referenced several well known "Catholics-in-name." I did a quick search on their ages. Here is what I came up with

    Pelosi 71
    Biden 69
    Sebelius 63
    Kerry 68
    Keehan 67

    Would you say there is something telling about the fact that they are all in that same age group?

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    1. Sam,
      I do think they represent the McGovern generation. They are the past and I hope the Jeff Fortenberrys are the future.

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  9. I would never advocate splitting or attacking other bishops or christians. I think the bishops we have in place now are MUCH better, but there are still some, that I know by name, who will not allow their priests to say appear on EWTN because they use Latin. They aren't reading this site, but they know who they are. They have expressely forbid their priests to do this under fear of loosing public faculties. That is rather confusing. Although I think the beginning of the article is errant and incomplete and a stretch, the fact that many of us 40 something Catholics have now worken up, learned the true teachings of the church and are asking almost daily, why didn't anyone tell me this when I was your average run of the mill, attend Mass once a week on Sunday Catholic. That is a legitament argument and factual. And to say that the church and many bishops didn't do their jobs to keep seminaries clean and audit them and their teaching, to run out openly homosexual agendas, to move out priests that are causing so many problems, is simply fact. The church has lost credibility in this country and in this world. Does it mean it's not the one True Church, certainly not, does it mean the teachings are wrong, certainly not, does it mean we attack the current set of bishops, certainly not. But there are still some rather liberal, leftist, pro-choice bishops left and until they are all removed and we have faithful leaders, how can we expect the sheep to follow. We all know the largest parishes, with the largest, non-contracepting families, are at orthodox parishes with orthodox priests. The same holds true for a diocese. And to that I would say, God Bless Bishop Schnurr, we pray for him by name about our family dinner table each night. But unfortunately, he's spending what appears to be all of his time trying to clean house, instead of teach and be with the flock. It must be done, however. I heard TTomeo say she's getting attacking emails. Anyone doing that should stop. This is not the time to point fingers, but support the bishops who are doing the right thing, and that number is thankfully much larger than the ones NOT doing the right thing. Their silience is telling.

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    1. Ninov,
      Again, this is not about a deficit in past leadership. It's about encouraging present leadership.

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  10. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the USCCB pushed Obamacare over the goal line to make it law. No one knew what was in it, no one read it. Then the Bishops didnt have a problem when Catholics and other 'people of conscience' business owners were obliged to pay for abortifacients and birth control items. Now since Church organizations are being affected by the HHS mandate then all of a sudden its a big deal...and it is! But the Bishops conference got us in this mess and thats where Rahe's article is spot on. So you can pick along all the edges and borders of the paper of Rahe's essay, but your changing the focus(Alisnsky style) ..its the Bishops Conference!

    This is not their first sin(pedophile scandal, numerous others) but lets hope its their last, but I doubt it.

    Did I mistate any facts?

    Arby

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    1. Arby, you are wrong. The statement is this.

      “The USCCB opposed the final legislation because it failed this test, a judgment sadly but clearly borne out by the failure of the law and the recent regulation to protect conscience and religious liberty,” explained Bishop Blaire.
      “I hope those who made or repeated this false statement will correct the record and report the bishops’ long and consistent record of support for health care which protects the life, dignity and consciences of all, especially the poor and vulnerable.”

      You can read it for yourself here......remember, the usccb has no cannonical authority and these folks can't really work as a group. I guess they can make public statements, but it doesn't officially speak for the Universal Church, nor does it speak for all bishops. There may have been some that liked Obamacare, but the official statement is the official statement and they did not suppor it. I think they should have been more opposed to health care run at a level too far away from the people. There are many other local solutions to this problem, such as health savings accounts, open up the state borders, and let us buy insurance from anywhere, and plans that allow for more selection of what we want. IE, I don't want to pay for abortion, contraception, plastic surgery, etc.

      http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-027.cfm

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    2. Ninov is right. The Bishops have long been promoters of universal health care. But when they saw that Obamacare had to kill some people to get there, they withdrew their support and opposed final passage of the bill.
      Arby, this is not time to expose the deficit in past leadership. we are in a crisis. We must encourage the present bold leadership.

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    3. Ohh, I'm wrong?
      Didnt the Bishop Conference deliver the necessary push to get Obamacare Bill from the House to the Senate?
      Then the final bill, when they werent' needed anymore, they withdrew their suppor

      I was wrong previously but not by much!

      ARBY

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  11. Al, I love your program and believe you are doing a great service for Catholics. However, I also believe you have your head in the sand when defending the bishops against statements made in the recent Rahe article. They, indeed, have abrogated their teaching responsibilities, and ignored Christ's call to feed his sheep. As somebody who has begged Detroit bishops for years to take a stance when matters implicating Catholic morality have been discussed in the public square --- and been brushed off by the bishops --- I know first hand how frustrating the bishops' lack of courage can be. I agree with you that Catholics should rally to oppose the HHS mandate; but, so far, I haven't a single word about this issue from the pulpit, nor haveI received any communication from the archdiocese. Press releases are no substitute for action!

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    1. Anonymous,
      Thanks for your encouragement. I love to hear that but the Bishops do too. Look at the Archdiocese of Detroit website. the Archbishop HAS released statements. In fact, on day three of this crisis, he was on the air with me saying that he would risk arrest if it came down to it. That's pretty courageous.

      I am sympathetic about the past. It is just that in this moment we are in a crisis and I think it is unwise to use this time to expose past leadership rather than encouraging the boldness of the current leadership.

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